Drew Champlin:
ASHRAE Journal presents. Welcome back to the latest ASHRAE Journal Podcast episode. My name is Drew Champlin and I'm the editor of ASHRAE Journal. And on today's episode, we have Kelley Cramm, and she will talk about elevator design, HVAC requirements. And this is based off a May 2022 article that ran in ASHRAE Journal. It was an Engineer's Notebook article written by Kelley and Brad Chambon of Henderson Engineers in Lenexa, Kansas.
And we're excited to have Kelley talk about that article. You know, it's something we haven't really talked about so much on this podcast, really generalizing it to elevators, but we do know that there are listeners out there who work on the elevators. And I'm happy to have Kelley back on this episode, because about a year ago, in episode 29, I was able to host Kelley as we talked about variable refrigerant flow basics and proper installation techniques. So first off, Kelley, how are you doing?
Kelley Cramm:
Hey. I'm doing well, Drew. Thanks for having me again. I appreciate it.
Drew Champlin:
Sure, and you play a big role for ASHRAE Journal with the Engineer's Notebooks, and we're looking forward to having one of those run very soon. I believe it's going to be in October of 2024. So whenever you listen to this, it could have already been published, but why don't you tell the listeners about yourself, any pertinent career information you want to share about yourself?
Kelley Cramm:
Okay, sure. I'm Kelley Cramm, I am a mechanical engineer, and I have been in the HVAC industry for over 40 years. I don't like to say exactly how many, but I've been an ASHRAE member also for over 40 years, and have been active in ASHRAE for about 40 years, starting with my chapter in the 1980s. I went through my chapter chairs and was chair of the Kansas City ASHRAE chapter. And then I started doing work with the society, at the society level in the '90s, and have been on many standing committees. I'm also active in technical committees. I'm the current chair of TC 9.10, which is laboratory systems, and I'm also currently serving on the standards committee.
Drew Champlin:
Obviously very busy with ASHRAE, and we certainly appreciate your expertise here and your willingness to make ASHRAE and ASHRAE Journal better. So let's talk a little bit about elevator design, HVAC requirements. You know, two years ago, two and a half years ago, what inspired you to write on this topic?
Kelley Cramm:
Well, you know, elevators are a staple in most modern buildings that are more than one story. We kind of take them for granted, right? And there has been a shift toward what we call machine roomless elevators, which are elevators that have the machinery in the hoistway, in lieu of in a separate room. I feel like that's kind of created a little bit of confusion, with young designers in particular, who may not be familiar with machine room requirements, the building codes, and specifically the International Building Code, and ASME, the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, Standard A17.1 is the safety code for elevators and escalators.
And there are some very specific requirements in those codes around elevators, and if you're not familiar with them, they could really easily be missed. And my colleague, Brad Chambon, who you referenced, wrote an elevator application guide that we use internally at Henderson, and it covers all those code and design requirements. And so I thought it might be appropriate to write an article based on that application guide, in part discussing both the requirements for machine rooms and also what you do when you have a machine roomless elevator.
Drew Champlin:
Yeah, it's crazy, you mentioned how we take elevators for granted. I mean, when I was bringing the equipment down here with our producer, Allison Hambrick, here at the ASHRAE headquarters, we put it all in a wagon, and get on an elevator, and go down one story. And then, I'm at my hotel and I'm going down 14 floors. And the only thing I could think about it is, "Please hurry up and get down, and don't stop on any floors."
Kelley Cramm:
We do, we take them for granted, and we trust that they're safe and they're effective, they're going to get us where we want to go, and we don't think twice about it.
Drew Champlin:
Well, what kind of feedback did you get from the column? Do you have anything worth sharing?
Kelley Cramm:
Well, it's been a couple of years, but I do remember getting some emails from people who thanked me for writing the column. And there were some questions. Honestly, I don't remember specifically what the questions were, but it seemed like most of the feedback I got was that the article was helpful.
Drew Champlin:
Right, and that's the May 2022 ASHRAE Journal. So if you're listening to this, especially if you're an ASHRAE member, please go find that and reference that. So we'll talk a little bit more of that here. Since it has been roughly two and a half years, what is different regarding maybe codes and standards, or anything else since this article is published?
Kelley Cramm:
Yeah, so the article covered hoistway venting in detail, and I noted in the article, hoistway venting was required by the International Building Code prior to 2015. The 2015 International Building Code eliminated the requirement for hoistway venting. But when I wrote the article, I did some research, and there were many code jurisdictions that were still under the 2012 IBC. So hoistway venting was required in those jurisdictions and it seemed relevant.
Since then, I did another round of research, and many jurisdictions have updated their adopted codes to the 2015 or later versions, so that means that hoistway venting is no longer relevant. However, designers really do still need to do research for their project, to determine what the local authority requires. Some authorities are going to have requirements that exceed the IBC, and note that some jurisdictions expressly require hoistway venting, even though the building code doesn't require it. So it's really on a case-by-case basis.
Drew Champlin:
Are there any other questions that may arise regarding code regulation with machine roomless elevators?
Kelley Cramm:
What's important to note about machine roomless elevators is that the elevator hoistway, or what some people refer to as the elevator shaft, essentially becomes the machine room, because the elevator equipment is located in the hoistway. So that ASME code and the building code that we referenced define the hoistway for machine roomless elevators, as they call it a machinery space. And the same requirements apply to the hoistway that would otherwise apply to the machine room. And it can be a little tricky for HVAC, because the building code expressly prohibits any mechanical systems from being located inside the hoistway.
So if you're going to cool the hoistway to keep the machinery cool, you have to duct it to a supply grill that's flush with the hoistway wall, because you can't put like a fan coil unit in the hoistway, because the building code doesn't allow that. Another thing to note about machine roomless elevators, as I mentioned in the article, is that in most cases, the elevator controller is mounted in the elevator door jamb. And this is something that we learned kind of the hard way. That controller, it can be installed remotely, say in a janitor's closet or a storage room, but the architect normally specifies the elevator, and they may not be aware that that's an option.
So we had a situation a few years ago where we had a high school athletic building that housed restrooms and a concession stand for the football field, and there was an elevator that went up to the floor above the concession stand, where there was a football broadcast studio. So the elevator door at the ground level opened to the outside. Well, we were not aware that the architect had specified the controller to be mounted in the ground floor door jamb. So it wasn't until it got installed that we realized there was no way to ensure the temperature at the controller would stay above the elevator manufacturer's requirement, which is normally like a minimum of 40 degrees Fahrenheit to 104 degrees Fahrenheit.
So in our part of the country, we get single-digit temperatures in the winter, and so when that door opens, if it's 10 degrees outside, that controller is not going to be able to stay above 40. So it was a real dilemma for us, and we had to make some changes in the field, and it was not a good experience, but we learned a lesson. If the architect had just specified that the controller be in the second floor door jamb or up on the wall in the broadcast studio, it would've been fine. But that is something that is peculiar to machine roomless elevators.
Drew Champlin:
Well, Kelley, how should building codes more clearly address these potential questions?
Kelley Cramm:
The building code and the ASME code are pretty explicit, but they can really be difficult to read and interpret. Anyone who's done code research knows that it's not for the faint at heart. You have to be a really good reader, you have to know your grammar to be successful at it. You also have to read the code definitions in the front section of the code, because the definitions in the code may be different than everyday definitions that we think about. So you have to also pay attention to the context, because the context in the code is very important to be able to understand what the code is trying to tell you.
Now, fortunately, there are documents available that you can purchase that are called code and commentary, and the code and commentary provides code language, but then it also provides additional clarification and background on code language. So when you're doing code research in general or on elevators specifically, if you have the commentary, that can really help you better understand what the code requires and help you apply it. That can be very helpful.
Drew Champlin:
What do you see as the biggest concern regarding code compliance or lack of understanding?
Kelley Cramm:
My biggest concern, both internally at Henderson Engineers, where I work, and also just on a broader landscape, is that a lot of designers don't take the time to do the code research, to understand what's required. This is a case for elevators, but really also for any topic addressed in the code. So in our hurry to get a project out the door, we don't always think we can take the time needed to do the research, but it's really important.
The code plan reviewer with the authority having jurisdiction, they may not catch the code violations in your documents and flag it, but you can bet that the inspector who comes to inspect the project at the end will catch it while doing the inspection for the occupancy permit, and that can be a disaster. It's going to cost a lot more to fix the problem at the end if the inspector catches it, and it may delay building occupancy, because that inspector is not going to grant an occupancy permit until all the code issues are corrected in the field.
Drew Champlin:
Kelley, could you talk more about elevator lobbies and hoistway pressurization?
Kelley Cramm:
So this is a topic that could be its own article. It's pretty complex, and there's a lot of very specific requirements, and I'm going to say I am not an expert on elevator lobbies and hoistway pressurization. But just briefly, in some cases, if the elevator is going to be used for occupant self-evacuation during a fire, which is not always the case, the elevators are not always used for evacuation, but particularly, say, in high-rise buildings, they will be, the hoistway and the enclosed elevator lobby, which is required by code, have to be positively pressurized, to keep smoke out of that exit passageway during a fire event. So this is to allow occupants to safely exit the building. And it's worth noting this is also true for code-required exit stairways, not just elevators, but there are some very specific requirements in the code around those issues.
Drew Champlin:
What are the barriers to cross-discipline coordination in creating and implementing building codes?
Kelley Cramm:
Yeah, so cross-discipline coordination is always tricky, whether we're talking about elevators or other things in our designs. My earlier example on the location of the elevator controller is a really good example. You have to coordinate with the architect on a lot of things regarding elevators, and part of the problem is that the architects are not typically experts on elevators. They rely a lot on the elevator manufacturer to help them. And so I always tell designers in my firm, "Ask the architect for an elevator cut sheet early in the project design phase." The cut sheet will tell you what the machinery heat release is, and that's going to inform how much cooling you have to put in the hoistway. It's also going to give you electrical criteria. What are the amps? The volts, phase. It's also going to give you the controller location.
So if you get that information early, as a designer, you can make sure that you talk to the architect about, "Where do we want the controller to be located?" Per my earlier example, you have to keep the controller typically between 40 and 104 degrees, so it has to be in a conditioned space. Since most of the time, the architects rely heavily on the elevator manufacturer, it can be difficult to get a cut sheet early, because the architect isn't thinking about the elevator at that early stage. But I tell the designers, "Be persistent, keep at it, and insist that you get a cut sheet on that elevator early, so that we can do our engineering properly, based on what the elevator needs."
Drew Champlin:
Who is primarily to blame when oversight occurs with building codes?
Kelley Cramm:
You know, it really depends on where the oversight occurs. And I will say that if the design team is cooperative and working as a team, many times, the architect is a separate company from the engineers. That's our case. We don't have architects on staff, so we work with architects who are separate entities. But if you're working as a team and you have some kind of code issue, particularly in the field, if everybody pitches in to get it solved, it's much more effective. Now, if it's specific to a discipline, say the mechanical engineer didn't realize they needed to put cooling in the elevator hoistway, and it's caught by the inspector or by a contractor who's installing, and points out that we don't have cooling for the hoistway, well, that may be the result of a lack of understanding by the designer or poor code research. And it also could be a lack of senior designer oversight.
It's really important that you have someone who is a senior level engineer, who has the experience to catch these things during design, because if a young, inexperienced designer is left to their own on a project, we have a saying in the industry, we say, "They don't know what they don't know." So they don't really necessarily understand that there are requirements that are outside of their area of experience, and that can result in some serious issues. So I think the most important thing is to have a senior level experienced designer on the project, guiding the younger designer, so that we don't miss things and we don't have code issues during construction.
Drew Champlin:
Okay. Well, to let everyone know, as I referenced, this article was in the May 2022 ASHRAE Journal, and it starts on page 26. On page 28, you have a flow chart, Kelley, and this flow chart to determine if a project requires hoistway venting, it's a useful visual aid. Could building codes benefit from more straightforward charts like this?
Kelley Cramm:
Yeah, that is a great visual. Brad created that and put it in our application guide, and absolutely, I think the issue is you typically don't find this kind of information in the building code, like a flow chart. You might find it in the commentary, but the building code tends to be language heavy and word intensive, and there is nothing typically in the building code that's visual, which is kind of a shame, when you think about it.
Now, NFPA, the National Fire Protection Association, which publishes codes and standards on their own on a number of issues, they do include flow charts. I've seen them a lot in NFPA, and they're really helpful to make it easier to understand what's needed, so that you have a visual way to get to the requirements, as opposed to just reading the words, which can sometimes be confusing and difficult to understand.
Drew Champlin:
Well, how does it occur that there are some parts of codes that are lesser known than other parts?
Kelley Cramm:
Like I said earlier, reading the code and interpreting the code can be very challenging. Codes are complex. They can be time-consuming to read and interpret, so it's really easy to miss things that are buried in the code. There may be very specific requirements that are expressed in a single sentence buried in the code, and so some authorities having jurisdiction may interpret code language differently than others, so it's a complex topic.
Now, at Henderson, we are fortunate to have a group of technical experts, we call technical managers. I'm part of that group, and we serve as a resource to younger designers, so we can help. We do the quality control on projects, and hopefully, if there are issues, we will catch them and get them corrected before things go out to construction. I'd like to say it's our job to keep the kids out of trouble, and having some gray hair and some senior level experience helps with that.
Drew Champlin:
Well, Kelley, to wrap this up, could you explain how some building code can be stricter than others, or how some code interpretation can be stricter, and what are some best practices, what they might look like in interpreting code?
Kelley Cramm:
Oh, wow. That's a tough question, because not all codes are the same. One example in my article that I mentioned earlier is that the International Building Code expressly prohibits mechanical equipment in an elevator hoistway, but the ASME Elevator Safety Code allows it. So we have to meet the code that's adopted by the local authority having jurisdiction, what we call the AHJ. So if that is the International Building Code, we have to abide by that prohibition. So that's just one example of sort of a conflict between two codes, and there are numerous other examples.
So I want to say something about code interpretation, though. The authorities plan, they have what they call plan reviewers. Those are the people that review our plans and grant a building permit, and that is a requirement before a contractor is allowed to start building a project, they have to go through the plan review, and the reviewer has to issue that building permit. So there are also what we call code inspectors, and those are the people who are in the field, inspecting the actual installation work. And the code inspector's job is to ensure that the installation complies with code, and it's their job to grant an occupancy permit when construction is completed.
And you can't occupy a building until the inspector grants the occupancy permit. Well, these plan reviewers and inspectors are human. Some are more reasonable than others, and the building code inspector, what we like to say is the building code inspector is all powerful. They may make an interpretation of whether your work is code compliant or not that we don't agree with. And I've had numerous instances in my career where we felt like what the inspector was requiring was clearly not required by code, and we would write a letter stating our case, and nine times out of 10, the inspector won't budge. They're going to make you do what they say is required, whether or not you believe it's required, and they can hold up building occupancy, so you have to comply.
These people are human, they're going to have interpretations sometimes that we don't agree with. In my career, I have found the plan reviewers, by and large, are pretty reasonable in their interpretation, and they will even allow exceptions if you expressly ask for an exception and it's a reasonable exception. A lot of times they'll grant that. The inspectors, on the other hand, I haven't had that experience with the inspectors. If they say, "You got to do something," you have to do it, whether you think it's right or not.
Drew Champlin:
It's a great way to wrap up this episode on elevator design, HVAC requirements. As mentioned, please go pull out your May 2022 ASHRAE Journal. Turn to page 26, the Engineer's Notebook column written by Kelley and Brad Chambon. Kelley Cramm, thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise.
Kelley Cramm:
Oh, you are welcome. This was a fun discussion, not only about elevators, but about codes, et cetera. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks, Drew.
Drew Champlin:
We look forward to doing this again some time. And to all our listeners, thank you so much for listening to this ASHRAE Journal Podcast episode.
ASHRAE Journal:
The ASHRAE Journal podcast team is editor, Drew Champlin; managing editor, Kelly Barraza; producer and assistant editor, Allison Hambrick; assistant editor, Sarah Omer; associate editor; Tani Palefski; and technical editor, Rebecca Matyasovski, copyright ASHRAE. The views expressed in this podcast are those of individuals only and not of ASHRAE, its sponsors, or advertisers. Please refer to ASHRAE.org/podcast for the full disclaimer.